Amy Clark: Unseen Leadership- The Bold Instincts That Shape Your Impact

About This Episode

Executive advisor, coach, and C-suite leader Amy Clark explores the hidden instincts that shape leadership under pressure and often limit growth, culture, and impact. Drawing from Amy’s work on unseen leadership, she unpacks how the need for certainty, control, expertise, and perfection can quietly drive decisions, especially in high-stakes environments. The conversation also dives into culture, decision-making, growth, and Amy’s CARE model: curiosity, adaptability, resilience, and empathy, offering leaders a practical way to lead with greater awareness, humanity, and boldness. Tune in for a thoughtful and practical conversation that will help you lead with more awareness, courage, and impact.

About Amy Clark

Amy J. Clark is an executive advisor, coach, and C-Suite executive who has spent more than two decades guiding senior executives and organizations through complex change. Amy helps leaders interrupt the instincts and patterns that limit their impact and activate the strategic capacity to lead inside uncertainty.

As the author of the best-selling book Growth Point and co-author of Talent Impact, Amy’s work has influenced leaders across Fortune 500 companies, mission-driven organizations, and emerging enterprises. Today, she partners with executives and teams to redefine relevance, build credibility that lasts, and develop leaders for the business they are becoming, not the one they have been. Amy resides in Middletown, Delaware with her husband, Ken, alongside their forever puppy golden retriever, Max.

Additional Resources

LinkedIn: @AmyClark 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast. My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host. If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world. This podcast is all about those kinds of stories. Every week we'll hear from someone who has taken the leap and embarked on an extraordinary journey. In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen. Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals. These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey. I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free. Tune in and get ready to be inspired. Welcome to the Bold Lounge. Today we have Amy Clark. She's an executive advisor, coach, and C-suite executive who has spent more than two decades guiding senior executives and organizations through complex change. Amy helps leaders interrupt the instincts and patterns that limit their impact and activate the strategic capacity to lead inside uncertainty. As the author of the best-selling book, Growth Point, and co-author of Talent Impact, Amy's work has influenced leaders across Fortune 500 companies, mission-driven organizations, and emerging enterprises. Today she partners with executives and teams to redefine relevance, build credibility that lasts, and develop leaders for the business they are becoming, not the one they have been. Amy also has a new book called Unseen Leadership: Interrupt the Instincts That Block Your Success. Welcome to the Bold Lounge. Amy, I'm so excited to have you and to be able to talk about your new book, Unseen Leadership.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Yes, I'm so excited to talk with you. I always enjoy our conversations too. So looking forward to it.

Defining Bold As A Choice

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Definitely. All right. Well, let's start with this one. What is your definition of bold? What does it look like in your life?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

For me, it's it's recognizing when my current way of thinking has run its course. And I choose growth over what's familiar. Ooh, okay. I like that. It's like it's evolved over time because you would think bold is it's not about taking a risk for risk's sake. To me, it's noticing when you're at your edge of familiarity and choosing to move forward anyway, and identifying the steps to help you do that.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I love that. I love that you said it was a choice. So you choose growth over familiarity, over what feels like day-to-day normal, right? Right. What kind of emotions come up when you make a bold move? Meaning, like there has to be something that comes into mind for you when you're taking that step that's an unknown step. It's empowerment.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

It's knowing I'm at the center of it. I'm again, I think this idea of choice, I feel empowered. I feel like I'm certain in the next step. I may not be certain in step two or 10, but I'm certain the next step is the right one.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

Yeah. I love what you just said there too. You're certain of the step. You're not certain of the result.

unknown 3:18

No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

A lot of people want to hear. They want the guarantee. They want to know it's a nine out of 10. It's a slam duck, you know, and really all you know is the next step you're taking. And you probably know the why of it, meaning what will I learn? Yeah. So we all have so many bold moments in our lives. There's a whole continuum of them, right? Some of super, super quiet ones that no one knows about to, you know, the ones that everyone sees. Do you have a time in your life that you can think of an example, one of the examples of many where you chose growth over familiarity?

SPEAKER_01 3:50

Yeah. And it's in the last like six, seven years, something like that. But it's when I chose to write my first book. Okay. Growth point. And I say that because I never thought of myself being a writer. I grew up in my career of don't talk about yourself as much. Keep your head down. Yeah. And being the corporate person. So those there were some definitions. There were some norms, right? So it wasn't something I ever imagined myself doing is putting myself out there in those terms that we hear, you know? And again, I never thought of myself as a writer. I didn't like writing. But it was interesting that, like, I have so much to share. And as I had conversations with people and worked with people over the years, I knew I could offer wisdom, solutions, practical ways of thinking about your learning journey and how to make most of the learning moments and how to create what that vision is for yourself. And so that was a bold step for me because familiar was corporate life. And that's the best way I can. It's just, and for people that get, you get it. It's just corporate life and doing something to help other people succeed. And it was time for me to do something more for me. And that's how I got out of my current way of thinking. Putting myself out there, it was a risk. I was vulnerable. Just like my last book on seeing leadership, Growth Point has many stories of my career and things that, you know, were hard for me to put down on paper, but were important for me to do that. And I think, you know, and those things help others.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Yeah. So being vulnerable for the sake of number one, helping yourself.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:23

And it's a good thing. I think, in the sense of sometimes even writing things out is a way of feeling it out or closing it out or using it as a growth point for you and others, right? There's this intense vulnerability about it, but there's also what I think, and I use this word too about making bold moves, there's a freedom in it, right? Yeah, it's out. And now we can not only talk about it, we can learn from it and we can, you know, not maybe make the same mistakes or maybe do it this way. Because we share good and bad, right? You know, in our books. And by bad, I just mean things that didn't go as planned. Right. And when we're making bold moves, sometimes things don't go as planned, right? So when you think about your books and the things that you've done with them, what is something that has maybe not gone as planned but worked out for the good?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

When I think of growth point, I had this idea of like, I want external validation, right? And so I had this idea of being so visible, and I was about the optics with my first book. And when I say it out loud, that's probably the first time I've said that out loud. When I say that the book has deep meaning to it, but I was focused so much on what do people think about this book? And I started to lose the message of growth point in that and the experience and the way I would talk about it. But the good thing that happened from it, it helped me start to see that external validation is only keeping me from growing. When I keep looking at what does this person think of this, what does this person think of that? I start focusing so much on proving myself instead of figuring out based on what I'm seeing right now, how can I be the best in this moment for other people? How can I create the most benefit for the people that are counting on me? And what does success look like for me? So I think for me, it was just like this whole I focus so much on getting sales, sales, sales, sales, sales with my first book that I wasn't talking about the meaning of the book, but I learned something from that for my second one.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

Yeah, for sure. I think you know, when you think about you said some important things in here. So you really worried internally about what people thought about the book, how many sales you would have, and the things that happen all around that. And it's intense. I think you don't realize that maybe when you're writing it, because you're kind of in the in the love of the at least I was initially, like in just the love of writing and sharing and unpacking stuff. You learn a lot about yourself when you're writing your book, and maybe not about the topic potentially, but like how you operate, how you handle stress, how you handle expectations that you're like, why is that important? What's one of the things when you were writing your books and coming into unseen leadership that you now know was a piece of leadership, meaning I chose this versus that. I did this versus this. Like, did you go against the grain anywhere?

When Instincts Block Future Impact

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Yeah, yeah. I mean, because you know, I what I had learned about myself and writing growth point and thinking about my career is I was leaning so much on what I thought what I was rewarded for in my career. You know, you're rewarded for in the environments I was in, confidence was overextended to say you need to come into the room certain. If you don't have the answer, that's not a good thing. And how much pressure that puts on you? That's huge. And that happens today. I mean, it happens today. Yeah. Whether that's the environment or not, people come into something feeling like they need to know the answers. They need to be certain, they need to be in control. And so many times where vulnerability is weak. And so I learned from that, and the notion I have in unseen leadership is about the fact that the very instincts that got you where you are, you know, we're told to trust our instincts. What if those things are keeping you from what the future needs from you right now? And part of it is some people don't even realize, don't quite understand what the future needs. So they need to start there. But second, they're so successful at what they've done. It's brought them where they are. And now they're thinking about, I don't even know what's needed from me right now. And if I did, how do I even do that? And they're really, they want to have more impact. And so for me, it's I've gotten to know my reflexes, my impulses, my saboteurs, where it's like the things that would protect me, how much they were holding me back. And that's what led to me writing Unseen Leadership because so many others are dealing with this in different ways.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah. So in essence, your book is one of the biggest bold moves wrapped up in a cover with pages, right? So when you think about the stories you've written and the things that you've done and the things that you're doing, you know, with the launch of this book, it's an evolution and an elevation, I think, of even your definition of bold potentially.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Would you agree? I would agree, yeah, for sure. Because it it takes it from me focused so much on, like I said, external validation and me being focused on being the center of my thinking and my actions. I am responsible and I own my actions. So I need to be at the center of that thinking. Not that I'm not going to take into account what people need and what's going on around me, but I focus so much on what people would think and the approval of others that it tainted my ability. It felt awkward, it felt pushy, it felt limiting until I realized I need to be in charge of my thinking, no one else, because I'm in charge of my actions. And realizing what I needed to do to get to that point is certainly the the center of this book.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Yeah. And there's a lot of, I would say maybe your next book is Unseen Pressure.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

Thank you, Lee.

Spotting Unseen Leadership Forces

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, sure, anytime. Because I think there's a lot of pressure that you don't even realize you're under as a leader within an organization, you know, and I think you can lead at a lot of levels with a lot of titles. But these pressures of, you know, your next review, the big meeting with the head honchos in the room, you know, the things that, you know, when I think back of like being placed in situations where I was just like, wow, I don't even know why I'm in this room at times, not from an imposter syndrome perspective, but like, why am I here? Right. Right. And what am I doing? I don't know if any leaders ever felt like that. Maybe, you know, you get the word, what am I doing? You know, because if we think about the, you know, I was gonna say the games, but I might as well put it out there, like of social media, the the things that the longer you're in it, the longer you try things or do things like write a book or be on television or you know, be on podcasts. So the more visibility you have, you begin to see what is happening in some of these spaces that isn't genuine. I think that's what I love about you as an individual, you as a leader, you as an author, uh, you as a human being. Like what you get is real. Yeah. And you're honest and you're honest with yourself first. And I think that's one thing um I think everyone can learn from Amy is you know, how do you approach that, right? So when you think about that, why this book and why is it so important for us to understand what unseen leadership is today?

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Because I think leaders are not realizing their relevance is fading every minute. They allow pressure to take over in their work, they allow uncertainty to keep them from making some decisions. And it all comes to our point of what again, we're born with these instincts to protect ourselves for survival. And you talk about this too. I mean, and it shows up in our lives, it shows up in our leadership. And so when something comes at us that feels threatening, and it could be pressure, it can be a deadline, it can be lack of resources, it can be something that's in front of you, and you have no idea where to start. It brings this pressure, and we automatically go to this instinct of how do I survive this? How do I protect myself right now?

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Yeah, the fight or flight, right? You know, your amygdala kicking in, like I need to do this for my boss, I need to make sure this is great, I need to make sure I'm seen. I need, you know, all the I need to's.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

Well, that's a thing, and or I should, you know? Yeah. And so what we automatically do, because again, you know, throughout our careers, as we've grown up in our careers, you know, our expertise has served us well. We go to the things that have served us well, like and to help us tone down this anxiety of like, okay, what has worked before? All right, I'm gonna go to that, which is not necessarily the case. That's not what's needed from you now. And so, in as we're looking at certainly AI and human and how we're designing work and businesses and modeling AI and human, but different generations in the workforce, we can look at regulatory things going on right now, but there's so many external factors happening globally that say to us, what worked before is not gonna work for you now. Your experience got you here, your expertise got you here, but it's not gonna keep you relevant in the long term. And there's too many leaders looking at that and saying, Well, this is what I deal with. I'm getting through my day-to-day. And they're thinking less about how they can think differently about their situation, and they're relying more on what's brought them here and made them successful already. And so that's what this book helps reveal in you. And you had mentioned it, like being self-aware and when it comes up for you and what to listen for is what this book will help you do. But then it'll help you say, all right, instead of getting in this place of I need to be certain about something, maybe you're trying to be certain too soon. How do you get curious about it instead? And what does that look like in practical terms that is a repeatable way of thinking, you know? Because so much leadership development in my experience of doing it, and even coaching sometimes, you have to be very careful because it often affirms things for people. And you know, people want to be supportive, but what you really want to do is destabilize what people are thinking today because you want to interrupt a pattern.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, you want to make them say, What? What did you say? But almost to yourself, right? You know, in the sense of like, why did I think that? Why did that come up? Why did I feel I had to versus I chose to, right? So, what is the definition of unseen leadership? How do we spot it? I feel like where's Waldo? Like now I'm like looking for it. There it is. There's unseen leadership spotted, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:31

There it is in the corner. It's again, it's a recognition, kind of like bold. Unseen leadership is recognizing those invisible forces that are driving your decisions. So it could be instincts, your expertise, your assumptions, and how it's holding you back from meeting the what the future requires of you right now. And, you know, I often look at this too because because what happens is when, again, when we look at assumptions, when we look at instincts, we tend to go to things that look good and make us feel good. So, you know, we know the higher you go in leadership, you're more visible. And so we're like, okay, how do I make this look good? Because instinct asks, does this look good? But when you're looking at unseen leadership, you're asking, what did it move? What impact did it have? So by really recognizing those unseen forces, you're really helping see where my impact is most needed right now and how I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

Yeah. How powerful are your beliefs when it comes to you know the pulls and pressures and some of the things that you just defined as part of leadership when it comes to your instincts and the assumptions? What do your beliefs have to do with it?

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Well, beliefs are your identity, it's what formed over your experiences. So it can be your growing up, childhood, whatever that is. And so I have found for me, you know, some that started very young for me and continue on. And so they're powerful because they make you think that you have to completely remove them to no longer have control over you. And that's not the case. You want to recognize when they come up and how they're impacting your decision-making process in that moment. So thoughts can have a power over you, but you can turn that around, you know. And so I think a lot of people look at this when I talk about beliefs. I've had some people say, Well, how do I stop believing that? Well, that's not the question because what you're doing is you're trying to really, you're not being asked to forget the experiences that led you here. You're asked to look at that and say, okay, what is a new way of looking at this now? And I want to honor what those things were because they made me who I am. What have I learned from that? What do I want to see happen? And what do I need to add to make that happen? Because over time, what happens is that energy from that consumes the power of your belief, but they are very powerful. I mean, because it's your identity, it's who you are.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yeah, my visual of beliefs is like they are the filter or the strainer, however you want to visualize it, of every move, every action, every conversation, like those beliefs, you are really filtering it through those. It's the foundation of all your next steps, what you believe, what's possible, what's impossible, those types of things. So you begin the book with a dedication to your father, and also the first chapter, you talk about losing your father. What do you know now that he did that you would define as unseen leadership? I know you were very young, you're 16 when you lost him. And so from the perspective of his leadership, anything come to mind for you of of what you would consider some of the key things to cue in on?

SPEAKER_01 18:38

Yeah, um, it led me, as I wrote about in the book, and a few definitions of unseen leadership, but one of them is how your influence lasts after you leave the room. So that legacy in a way, but not even legacy like um like career legacy, but also like when you leave the room, someone's still thinking about what you said or yeah, and so those are you know, my dad was a and one of the things that has formed my personality and the way I am is he would sit and think and reflect a lot. He had a quiet confidence. Was he funny like you? Oh, we had some funny things. You know, one of the things we would do, and I I think about it often, one of the things we do is I was little and I have worn glasses since maybe I was like eight or nine years old. And I remember he was in his recliner, his chair watching TV, and I was going up to bed, and I went to give him a kiss goodnight, and our glasses like clicked, right? And I was like, Oh, I'm sorry. He goes, he goes, No, you know what? We're gonna do that every night instead of kissing goodnight. We're gonna click our glasses, and he just starts jolly laughing. It was the best thing, you know, just those little things because it taught me that those little bumps mean something. And the dedication of the book, you know, while he's not seen, his presence is always felt with me because it's been a long time. But while I don't hear his voice anymore, it's hard for me to hear kind of what he sounds like. The things I have around me um remind me of the presence he had and how he valued self-reflection. His faith was very deep for him. And at one point in his life, from my what I understand, my mom, he was considering priesthood early on when he was young.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Oh, wow, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

And he studied theology and very close relationships with our priest, our church, and things like that. And he had such a calming way, yet authoritative way, not authoritative, I'm not saying pushy and pushing down, but you listen to him and you're like, oh, wow, yeah. Like just the wisdom that came from him. And I like to think I got that from him. I hold that very close. So yeah, that's why when I think he wasn't about being the loudest person, he wasn't about being the most visible person, but he wanted to make damn sure he made a difference and that the people around him that he was responsible for knew how to do that too.

Culture Is How Decisions Get Made

SPEAKER_00 20:50

So he's left his legacy in you, yeah. Oh, yeah, in your message moving forward for sure. Thank you for sharing that. When you think about culture and where it shows up these days. Now, I know we could talk about our beliefs, which we kind of talked about, our identity, but I want to talk about culture for a second. Okay. How does it show up differently today in modern organizations than it did before? And just had an interesting conversation with someone around they knew it wasn't a good idea to do what they were doing, and it really wasn't aligned with who they were, but they did it anyway. And now, you know, they pay the price for it in some shape or fashion. But they talked about how much culture really was that's just the way it was within the organization. What do you think it does when we think about culture and showing up in unseen leadership in today's world?

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yeah, when I think about past, it's been really tangible. I mean, people feel like they need a, you know, they don't want ambiguity around it. And I know culture can be that way, but when I say tangible, it was like, what are we doing for people? Not the poster on the wall, right? Right, right. We got the values up there, we're doing good benefits, we have bring in lunch, that kind of thing. And I think some of that still exists. Today, but I think what's transformed with it, it's to me, it's about how decisions get made and who you involve, who's invited to conversations. It's really the process of the work and the thinking in the organization is what forms a culture.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

And understanding where, because I think sometimes what we try to do is we look at different people and we're like, okay, what would motivate them? And, you know, I know they would do really good at this, so I want to try to improve them in this. You know, we're always trying to do something for people, which comes from a good place. What we need to be saying is, what is this person's strengths and where do they want to continue to contribute? And let's not put a square peg in a round hole. Let's put them in the right space to be the most successful. And what conversations do we need them to be in now? So we are moving forward. And so I've, you know, in my role as leading HR over the years too, you know, culture has come in a place of what engagement scores look like. And that's a metric to give you something to look at for sure, right? But that doesn't define or show what your culture is. It's how people experience their day-to-day together. And so what the main piece of this, I say, is how we make decisions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:10

And I think sometimes we don't think that the decision we're making impacts our culture, right? We don't think that, oh, we're just going to do this one time, or maybe we'll flex here, even though I know that's not really what I want to do. Why do you think leaders do things they don't want to do? Or why do you think they make some of the choices that are not aligned?

SPEAKER_01 23:29

I think sometimes it's a path of least resistance for them. Okay. You know, I think it's a trade-off. What have they done recently? What do they need next? I think we're in those real trade-off discussions with ourselves. You know, if I focus here, I know I'm going to need to do this. So is this going to impact that? And what would I rather have? I think that's part of it. And it's exposure. And again, it goes back to these instinctual reactions of what do I need to protect right now? Well, we're not asking that in those words in that way. It's more of like, again, oh man, what's going to happen if I do this? What's going to happen if I don't?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Yeah, you're thinking of the impact of the action and the what people will think or what people will assume or or misunderstand, et cetera. Like you could put in whatever verb you wanted there.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

You know, but put this on the other side too, though. When we make decisions and things that we necessarily don't want to do, the other side of the token is because it's better for others. We have to make some of this compromise of our own need because it's for the greater good. So there's the other side of the coin to this. It's not only about I'm doing it because I feel like I need to protect myself from something else. I'm doing it because I know it's for the whole and not for me.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah, I think a lot of the times as a as a leader, my thought was not about me. It was about my team. It was about the overall goals. It was about, I know this is gonna tick someone off, but I know it's the right thing to do and it'll delay us, but I'm doing it anyway. You know, those are bold moments in in your career. So, how does unseen leadership reflect the pressures and expectations leaders do face today?

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah. Well, when we're under pressure, thinking narrows. And so often when we're in that space, listen, I just gotta get this done, just gotta push through, right? I hear those words a lot, push through. We've got this. What happens is again, it narrows our thinking, and we're not considering other things that could be present. And we end up in a place we don't want to be. So it gets back to we, there's there's four things that we focus on. And they're really the these myths of leadership that I have to be certain and control, that my expertise is what I need, is what's going to carry me through. And I need to get this right. So, this idea of perfection. And so when you get people in these pressure moments, that's what they default to. And so that's why some of them say, like, I've done this before, I've been here before, I know what to do. And they just go without considering, well, wait a minute, does that really still matter in this situation? Is there something else we need to be thinking about?

SPEAKER_00 25:54

Yeah. I think culture too is, you know, not to hit this up again. I think it is one of the things I noticed most when I moved from one academic institution to another, the cultures were different. Uh, their focus was different. They wanted the same results and the same excellence and the same quality, which is great. But the culture to do that and to move through that was very different. And I think I didn't really realize that because a lot of times you're in the same place for most of your career. I mean, a lot of us are, right?

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

But it was interesting for me to note it, to see it, to understand also now I need to lead differently here because the culture is different. And it's not a negative culture, like it wasn't like something was negative, but it was something I had to figure out how to operate within, meaning, you know, not wanting to make a lot of dust, not, you know, wanting harmony and wanting, you know, everything to be extremely smooth was not something I'd done before. So, like when we think about that, how does someone even know what their culture is like? Because it's not something we think about, I think inherently as we're walking in the door each day.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Well, right. And we think it's something that comes to you over time, though. And that's that's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I mean or it's something HR does. Like, you know, I think when I was younger, I didn't I didn't even think about it.

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Well, you know, you hear these things like, you know, we're gonna hire for culture fit. I don't subscribe to that. I look at culture ad. Okay. What does that even mean? I haven't heard that. Yeah, so culture fit, you're like you're asking questions like, will they fit into how we do things here? And yeah, you you want somebody that feels like they can add value and that they're flexible in their thinking. Okay, so we want people to be flexible in their thinking because there's going to be a trade-off, there's gonna be this give and take. When I say culture ad, that they're bringing their experiences, their way of thinking, their way of making decisions, their way of processing to the conversation that we may not have done before. Again, because when I think of culture, it's what's happening in the in the meetings. It's what's happening with your one-on-one with your leader, it's what's happening with your peer. How easy is it for me to get work done? Not that the work is easy, but how as easy is the flow? Are things really hard to get to? Is it really hard to get to a decision around here? And so when somebody goes into something new, like you had mentioned, those are conversations that really take place first four to six months of understanding from people of tell me what's most important for you right now. What's what's what's on your radar? How can I make things easier for you? And you can ask these questions in different ways, but that's ultimately what you want to get to because when you ask those questions, people start to show, you know, what's really difficult right now is this is that we get a group of 12 people together and we don't really seem to come to some kind of clear decision of what we need to do. That's a culture thing because it's again within the thinking and the decisions of a group. And so that's why I say culture ads, somebody to come in to give a different view is what organizations need because you keep going the same line of thinking and get that group think, you're gonna miss out on something.

SPEAKER_00 28:50

Yeah. What's interesting is I I've heard that several times as I've, you know, had different roles, is like I never thought I would get one interviewed, let alone hired in some of the roles. I mean, because I wasn't the exact fit, I wasn't the exact degrees they wanted. And literally they say that's exactly why we hired you. Because we want you to see it differently. So that culture adds. So that says a lot too about the institutions being open to those types of you know, people who do maybe come in and say the thing that everyone's thinking, which is a bold move, or suggest, or you know, that's what I love about being new sometimes, is like you get to ask the questions that maybe no one else would ask.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yeah, you get that honeymoon period.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah, safer space, right? Yeah, to ask that question. So, what do you think changes when leaders make the invisible visible in the organization?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

It causes people to look and say, what's happening over there? I think first of all, you're you're disrupting thinking of other people, not just yourself. You know, so if you have been in conversations and you're mostly been making statements or agreeing, and then all of a sudden you start to see in yourself and you're developing in your level of curiosity, and now you're asking more questions, people will be like, wait a minute, what's that? Okay, wait a minute. You're helping other people now be more curious because they want to learn more about what you're saying. You know, you can do the same thing in terms of how adaptable you are in the organization. So, you know, when you're in a session talking about perhaps some major project or initiative you're doing, sometimes by asking the question, what is it we're trying to decide right now? Sometimes like shakes up the room, you know. So it's it certainly is a change in you, but the biggest impact is the influence you have across the table in the chair next to you. And it's not comfortable for people, you know, because they're just wondering what is going on and how do I respond to this? So it's not an easy place to be. Not everybody leads that way, but it's important to do that anyway.

SPEAKER_00 30:42

Yeah. What's interesting as you're talking, I'm like, this really isn't just for people who are new, no, you know, or coming into leadership positions or management positions, et cetera. This is really something that's applicable across all levels of leadership, and even those without a title. Yes. Yeah. So what consistently resonates for people when you're talking about unseen leadership? What is like the aha that comes really fast for some versus other concepts?

SPEAKER_01 31:07

I think the first thing is when I work to help them be curious about something. And I don't necessarily use that word, but it's more of, you know, I've had leaders, you know, they're coming to me with a situation, they're throwing out all assumptions, right? We do that because we just do it's in our mind and it's important to get out. And sometimes by asking, is that really true? What makes you believe that to be true? What have you seen? Right. And when you ask it, you can immediately see the expression on somebody's face.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Well, um Well, there's a pause that they actually get to think about it, right? And they're like, right, I get to think.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Right. Because for us too, I mean, we again we automatically go to this default of trying to explain the situation and why it's not a certain way. And so of saying, wait a minute, what could this really be? And I think that's really the first interruption I see with people is when you ask, how do you know that to be true? What's drawing to that conclusion for you specifically? And sometimes when I do ask, so what happened when you talk to this person about it? Well, I didn't. Okay, well, let's start there, right? You you kind of because we again we go assumptions because we're thinking about all the things we need to do, what we need to protect right now, what we need to hold together, and that narrows our thinking. So working on the curiosity piece is the one that's the that's most eye-opening for people. Yeah. And moving on to their next step.

The CARE Model For Modern Leaders

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, and I hope we can continue to grow as organizations where we can say curiosity in a leadership setting, because I do think it's really important. Tell us about the care model and how you utilize that when it comes to leadership and also some of the things that, you know, for us as we grow, we can continue to, you know, insert it into how we operate, how we work with our teams.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Yeah. So care is an activator of the most strongest parts of your leadership. It's meant to interrupt the instincts that are holding you back. And you may not realize they're holding you back. So for instance, it's so we talk about care, it's curiosity, adaptability, resilience, and empathy. It's these four disciplines that really have us opening our thinking to what the future needs from us. Not so much from the past or the present, but what does the future need from us in this moment? And particularly the most senior leaders, that's the work we're doing. You know, we're not so much managing the present or leading in the future, and we need to be thinking about those things. So, for instance, when we feel like we're so certain on something, the interruption is curiosity. How do I know this to be true? What assumptions am I making? Will this still hold if X changes in six months, for instance? Right? You ask yourself those questions depending on the circumstance. Because the other thing we do is we like to have control, you know, and sometimes we hold on to plans longer than we should. And so, you know, the interruption of that is what's adaptability look like in this moment? Not necessarily just a pivot, but what are the three turns? What is through what do three turns look like in this situation? And and do I have the foresight? Am I seeing that? And if I don't, what do I need to find out? What do I need to learn to know that? That a step I'm taking today, what's the downstream impact on three steps ahead? So that's really what it does. It gets you to away from the things that have always worked into asking questions and gaining more insight. So your thinking is broader.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:27

Now, this is from certainly a self-leadership. It's how you lead others and how you lead organizations. And leading others, for instance, on the empathy side, you know, we hear so much about empathy. And it's interesting when I talk in organizations about it, sometimes I get, well, you know, that's a nice thing to have. Well, no, empathy is not about being nice. Empathy is about creating connection to maximize performance of your team. And what often happens and what blocks empathy is the fact that we want to come in showing what we know. We want to be helpful. We feel like there's something we always need to do as a leader for our people, but that's not always the case. And so entering a conversation of not what I need to do, but who do I need to be for this person right now? What's my presence for this person right now? Let go of my own stories in my head and listen for what their experience is so I can help them see their potential and the next move. So empathy can be a very powerful thing with your team. So again, all those three facets, self-team, and organization is where this activator can come into play in different ways.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Yeah. Why do you think we feel we have to be certain and almost perfect as a leader? You think that's like no one told me that. No one said that. But yeah, when I walk in a room, I I want to know my stuff. I want to feel prepared. I want to be ready. You know, like I think of you walking into some of the biggest meetings I ever was in. Like you wanted your stuff together and you wanted to be, you know, ready to answer anything they throw at you. No one told me that. No. You know, so that's my own issue. Where do you think some of that? That's my example. Maybe other people can relate, but you know, it's it's is it the culture of the organization? Is it how I grew up? Is it, you know, one of my shadows? Could it be all the above?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah, it could, yeah, it could be those different things, but I do think it's culture too. But I think part of it is because, you know, when we're in whether it's one-on-one meetings, team meetings, executive meetings, we're looking at results a lot of the times. What results do our shareholders want to see? What results do our customers need to see internally? What does the CEO need to see in terms of numbers, efficiencies, whatever that is? You know, we want to look, we're looking at the balance sheet, the income statement, those things. And when you start to make it about these tangible numbers, we all of a sudden get to, okay, I need to know what's behind every single one of these things. I need to know the answer for everything. And so when you think about the answer for that, it just explodes into feeling like I need to know for everything else. Nobody's told you that you've had to do that. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

We don't have people the first day, you better know all the answers, right? We're not doing that. But again, it but again, it comes from just what is that thing that's holding you to say what you want to protect? Because whether it's you want to get promoted, you know there's some reorganization going on, you know, there's this big project you really want to be called upon to do, you're at this heightened awareness now, feeling like, oh man, if I don't know the answer to that, that's like a ding on this side of the chart. So instead of thinking that way, the most powerful thing you can do in showing your leadership and saying certain is what are the questions I can ask this room to consider other possibilities or to move us quicker towards the result we want. And so that's a learned thing over time. And so uh, it's not, it's no expectation that's on a review or goal or anything like that. It's just something that is self-imposed, but I also think the culture has things to do with it because when you see your leaders spouting off things like that, you're oh my, how did they do that? I better do the same thing. But they're in a different place, they're two steps ahead of you, you know. So I think that puts some pressure on us.

Listening As A Leadership Multiplier

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Yeah, comparison definitely comes in of like, I want to get to that level, I want to be at that level, I want to be seen as an expert. There's a lot of pressure for that in social media, et cetera, like the visibility of being a thought leader, all of that. But I think a lot of the times people are feeling pushed potentially into some of those spaces where they then don't make the aligned decision or next step, like we talked about at the very beginning. When you think about listening, as I think a you know, to me that sometimes that is unseen leadership in a positive way of like this person's really listening, they're really present and connected to empathy potentially. But what role does that play in you know leadership today and some of the things that you know with all your research and interviews that that you've seen, the power of listening as a leader?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah, that's certainly foundational. Hearing and listening are two different things, you know. Um, I can hear what you say, but am I really listening to what you say? But that's the heart of empathy, though, because when you're talking with somebody and listening, the important piece about listening is trying to keep your own experiences from telling the end of the story, you know, from coming to a conclusion. And so, in terms of unseen leadership, when you're having conversations, what I like to say to people, okay, you're listening, take it all in, make the notes. What question can you ask to help them expand on what they're saying? Or if you can't think of a question, replay what you heard. If I heard you right, so you're saying we ought to be thinking about this, this, and this, right? So then how do you propose we go to that step, right? Because what we tend to do is we're problem solvers, especially leaders. We got problems, we want to solve them. And so we automatically want to try to solve it for somebody to help them. It does happen. The best leaders know that I'm not here to solve this for them. I'm here to walk alongside them as they solve it. Be that partner with them, be that thought partner. And when I know they're stuck, letting it's okay. It's okay to be stuck. You know, we've got this together.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

It's okay not to have all the answers.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Right. They have to model that.

SPEAKER_00 40:00

Yeah. I think some of the most powerful moments for me in leadership was when I actually shared, I don't know the answer. Yeah. I wasn't expecting this. What we did didn't go as planned. And I I did that just inherently because I think that's how I was raised, too, to always be honest. Because my mom was like, just always be honest with me, Lee, because if you lie to me, I won't know from that moment forward what is true and what is not. Like it was like ingrained in me. So it was like, be honest. And so, like, in the sense of that, sometimes as a leader, we think, oh, that means no blems. That means no, you know, you know it all. Like you said, certainty, perfection. I'm an expert. I have 7,000 letters by my name or whatever it may be. That isn't what leadership is all about. Those are components of it, but it is not the thing, right? When it comes to being a leader.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

No. I mean, and what the care activator does is it it humanizes leadership.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

Yeah, I love that. You can place it over a lot of things, and you can also have it be in the center of your steering wheel as a leader. Oh, I love that. Yeah. I envision it kind of like, you know, when you're driving, it's like where you honk, but that's where, you know, that's that's where that care activator. Yeah. So it's the center of, you know, what you do, how you act. It's that filter potentially, even that we, you know, it could be for your team. So we were talking in the green room about, you know, what writing a book teaches you, but I'm curious about what surprised you most while writing this particular book, Unseen Leadership. Or even something you learned about yourself as a leader.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Well, yeah, what I originally intended, it was I I have this big cardboard storyboard. I had these post-its of what the book was gonna be. Okay. And then I took a pause from it because it just wasn't feeling right. And so what surprised me the most is I was looking at this from a journey of it was very vague. And I learned for myself that get to the why, why it needs to matter to people. How are people gonna be different after reading the final line in this book? And so that has carried with me on anything else. Like, how is this person gonna be different after this conversation? You know, how do they want to be different? And so I think I learned that about myself of really asking, you know, you talk about you hear about, you know, thinking about the end in mind. That's true. And I so I it reinforced that for me. But, you know, I don't know that anything surprised me so much. It was more of the learning and the learning I had from people that I interviewed that were part of the stories in this of how pervasive some things are that we're just so used to, and we think that it's leadership. Yeah, we don't even think it's out of the norm. And so I think it's high time we start talking about it more.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

And um getting ourselves in a space of it doesn't need to be this way.

SPEAKER_00 42:41

Yeah, there are other possibilities, other routes. And I think the other thing that you just shared, you had the plan at the beginning too, and you felt you could change it. I was like, I this was the plan, but it's not the plan now. So I think you know, making that pivot.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, because I was struggling to write and I was writing, and I'm like, what is this even saying? You know, it sounds good to me, but it needs to sound doesn't always sound good to everybody else. I do I've been there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

So I was better in my mind when I was gonna share this with you. Like I didn't think that was gonna be the response, like when you get the notes from your editor. Right. Uh yeah, didn't work out as planned. But hey, you kept moving. I think that's the other lesson. I kept moving, rolling through it. Yep, moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

Yeah, and I was less worried about the polish as I started writing again. And I just I wanted to put ideas. Here are the things that I'm seeing, here's here's this and here's that. And I did skip around as I was writing, yeah. Which drove you know the publisher crazy. But I said, No, I've got to go over to this chapter now because something came up, you know. And it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:41

Yeah, that's interesting because you could actually start writing your book on chapter three.

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

You know what chapter one and two are about, but like when you're starting off, I know from my first book, I didn't start off with chapter one. I started off with a different chapter because I didn't know what to start with. So it actually the beginning came after I started in the middle, which is A really wacky concept as a leader. You're like, this isn't how it works.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

I'm with you. Yeah, because they wanted me to do the introduction first, and I challenged that.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

I said, No, I I'm not doing that. I'm actually going to start. I said I was going to start in the middle, and then I wrote chapter one. And then I, you know, so it was um I don't think you can write the introduction, honestly, at least for me, my style, till you're done. Right. Yeah, me too. So I think that's where, you know, adaptability came into play for me for sure. Because I am a structured person. I'm a systems-driven person, but this allowed me to go outside of that, which was fun to be on the creative side of it.

SPEAKER_00 44:35

Yeah. So as we're closing out, what is one question every leader should be asking themselves right now?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

What don't I know yet?

SPEAKER_00 44:42

And that leads to what?

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Well, it it's depending on what they're sitting with at this point. Got it. Okay. It leads to, you know what? I don't know if this person is aware of it. I need to talk to them. I don't know if I'm up to date on what's happening over here. Okay. I don't know if by making this decision how this person's going to receive it. So I think that what don't I know yet before making a call is a very important question to ask yourself.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah. And in just learning, you know. So put that on the sticky note and put it on your laptop or whatever. What don't I know yet? What don't I know yet? Because at first I'm thinking, well, I don't know a lot of things yet, but I think it's more so situational. And like really taking that through when you're making that decision or making that move or taking that strategic step. Like, what is it that I don't know? What are the unknowns, right? The known unknowns, so to speak. Um taking time and being present to understand what they are. Right. I love that. Well, everyone, every leader, every person who is out there wanting to create success in a culture that is led by curiosity, empathy, and a lot of other positive things when it comes to leading, pick up unseen leadership, interrupt the instincts that block your success. Thank you, Amy, so much for being on the Bold Lounge and sharing this story and the vulnerability and the boldness uh that came with it.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Yeah, thank you. I've enjoyed it. Appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 46:04

Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast. Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking a leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story. By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.