Dan Pontefract: The Bold Future Belongs to Every Age

About This Episode

In this episode, leadership strategist and bestselling author Dan Pontefract explores why age may be the most overlooked diversity dimension in the workplace. Drawing from his new book, The Future of Work is Grey, Dan challenges the outdated belief that talent has an expiration date and shares what organizations lose when they fail to value multigenerational wisdom, trust, purpose, and evolving career paths. Together, Leigh and Dan discuss the difference between stated values and lived values, the leadership choices that shape psychological safety, the impact of AI on entry-level work, and how leaders can build stronger teams across generations using Dan’s “rivers, rocks, and rubies” framework.

About Dan Pontefract

Dan Pontefract is a renowned leadership strategist, award-winning author of six books, and keynote speaker with three decades of experience helping organizations and leaders improve overall performance. He has presented at four TED events and earned multiple industry awards, including Thinkers50 Radar, HR Weekly’s 100 Most Influential People in HR, PeopleHum’s Top 200 Thought Leaders to Follow, and Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 Leadership Speakers. Dan’s best-selling books include his latest bestseller, The Future of Work Is Grey, Work-Life Bloom—the 2024 Thinkers50 Best New Management Book and the Gold Medal Winner of the Axiom Business Book Awards, as well as the award-winning Lead. Care. Win. He also writes for Forbes and Harvard Business Review.

Additional Resources

Website: danpontefract.com

New Book: thefutureofworkisgrey.com 

LinkedIn: @DanPontefract

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to the bulletin. My name is Lee Burgess, and I will be hosting hearing the function stories of people who need some kinds of stories. Everybody will hear someone who will take the story. Whether they think challenges will make it persistent. They ultimately achieve their goals. These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own culture. I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be created. Tune in and get ready to be inspired. Welcome to the Bold Lounge. Today we have Dan Pontyfract. Dan is a renowned leadership strategist, award-winning author of six books, and keynote speaker with three decades of experience helping organizations and leaders improve overall performance. He has presented at four TED events and earned multiple industry awards, including Thinkers 50 Radar, HR Weekly's 100 Most Influential People in HR, People Hum's Top 200 Thought Leaders to Follow, and Inc. magazine's top 100 leadership speakers. Dan's best-selling books include his latest bestseller, The Future of Work is Gray, Work Life Bloom, the 2024 Thinkers 50 Best Edu Management Book, and the Gold Medal winner of the Axiom Business Book Awards, as well as the award-winning Lead Care Win. He also writes for Forbes and Harvard Business Review. Welcome to the bold lounge, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Lee, it's great to be here. How bold can we go?

SPEAKER_00 1:58

We can go pretty bold today. I'm I'm feeling fired up. So I am ready to kind of jump into this and specifically talk about the work that you do in not only looking at being a leader, but specifically being a leader at any age and different generations working together. So super excited. But before we get into that, I would love to know what your definition of bold looks like. What does it mean to be bold in Dan's world?

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Uh bold means to be open as in an autodidact, as in never stop learning, you know, blank is going to hit the fan. And how you react, counteract some of those incursions in your life or your work really says a lot about how bold you are as a human being. So whether you're a parent, whether you're not, whether you're in the community, whether you're not, whether you're at work, uh whether you're not, life happens, right? And so when these incursions and these curveballs occur, my, I guess, joie de vive even way of living is well, how how much bolder can I get in response to whatever that incursion might be trying to do to me?

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Right. And incursion could be something that normally what I will say is something went left, something didn't go as planned, something didn't go along the lines of what I expected, which is pretty much a daily occurrence in some in some shape or form. And it's not all, I think they have degrees, right, of incursionness, I guess, of how much they come in or how big the impact may be. And some are smaller and some are, you know, quite big.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

You can lose your job due to a structural organizational decision to eliminate parts of the workforce. You could be on a road and your car hit a pothole and your right passenger side front tire shredded. You could be served notice for jury duty, and all of a sudden you're you're you're sequestered for 68 days. So you're right. Like there's all kinds of things that happen to you on a daily, weekly, monthly, and sometimes um annual basis. How do you handle the incursions?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yeah, so that's what being bold is all about. And I think handling it with grace, probably a sense of humor. Um, I think grace for yourself, grace for others. And I think that's not always easy to do. When you think about how you've been bold in your life and handled those

Choosing Values Over A Safe Job

SPEAKER_00 4:20

incursions, do you have an idea of one you'd want to share where your definition really shines?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, actually. So let's let's go back to 2006. I'm working at a high-tech company.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

It's called Business Objects. I'm the chief learning officer. And so for about 10,000 people, that means that I'm in charge of the development of engineers, software developers, regular people that aren't involved with software development, consultants, trainers, HR, finance, right? But also I'm in charge of what's called education services. So that is the revenue generating side. So customers using the software and all the you know training that goes with it. So if you fast forward, we were hearing rumblings that we might be acquired. Company is about a billion dollars in revenue, 10,000 people, as I mentioned, employees, and and it happened. And a very large organization acquired the company called Business Objects, and that company, it's still kicking around today at gazillions of dollars, is called SAP. So SAP is this big, big high-tech company based in Waldorf, Germany, as its headquarters. So, me being me, you know, I tried in earnest uh through multiple trips to Germany and to leaders to sort of explain hey, not only did you buy a pretty good product and a software company, but you've acquired a culture because what we worked really hard at at Business Objects was to craft this familial, collaborative, egalitarian-like culture. And it was just, it was one of the best experiences of my life over that sort of six-ish year period. And so, in conversations with the leaders of the time about what it is that uh they had acquired, uh maybe not everyone was seeing the light of the culture we had crafted. Like you're the acquired company, you know, kind of get in line. And so my team, of which was about 120-ish people around the world. There was a decision made without me involved after sort of a year and a half of integration activities to disband the team that was called UBI, University of Business Intelligence. You know, it is what it is, and so I took umbrage, I suppose, with how a company did not truly believe in sort of the culture we had crafted. I didn't want to be part of something that didn't believe in the way in which that we operated things. And so after those 18 months of trying my best and making sure that everyone had a job and they were split up into four different groups across SAP, I put my hand up and I said, I have no idea what to do or where to go next, but I would like that package that other senior leaders are getting. My boss was like, Really? I was like, Yeah. It's like with nowhere to go. I said, Yep. He said, Don't you have a five, a three, and a one-year-old? I said, Yep. He said, You really believe in yourself, don't you? And I said to him, his name at the time, uh, my boss was also Dan. I said, Dan, uh, here's the deal. I believe in a mantra that I've crafted. And that mantra is, we're not here to see through each other, we're here to see each other through. And I believe enough in me that I will be able to see myself through this incursion. And wouldn't you know? Six-ish months later, I became a chief learning officer at a telecom in Canada called TELUS. So, for people that are in these situations, I think about being boldly, you know, you do have to believe in yourself. I think you do need a personal mantra. Mine's a purpose statement, as I mentioned. We're not here to see through each other, we're here to see each other through. And you gotta be bold to use sort of the language of the day here in your wonderful show. Otherwise, you know, you're not gonna move forward.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, and you're most likely not living your purpose.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

So I have been drinking the Tomrath Kool-Aid ever since he came out with his uh newest book. I mean, I I loved his works before, but this one personally, I I love this book because it really does talk about the purpose. And what you talk about is really the action you take to get to it and to understand your organization, you know, really where the culture and leadership and human performance and being human come all together, right? You've been doing that all of your life, really, in your work directly and also in your books. So when you think about that overall, is there a question in your career that has stayed with you the longest that you're still on a track or a journey to answer? Like a question that keeps coming back to you that you want to find the answer to?

SPEAKER_01 8:47

Yeah. What makes somebody a Judas or Brutus? And why do they get that way in the workplace?

SPEAKER_00 8:55

Okay. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

So, what I've discovered over time, and now I am 18 days shy of turning 55. I have been out of a full-time role by choice for the last seven years running my own little one-man band, but working with numerous organizations and leaders around the world. So I think I come at this from uh I started out in academia for eight years. I spent 20 years in high tech and telecom, and then I have the last seven years or so, six years running my own one-man band. What I've discovered in looking through that rear view mirror and working with leaders and cultures and teams and organizations, as I say, writ large globally, is that wherever you go, you're going to encounter a Judas or a Brutus, or both. And what I mean by that is you have to be semi-cognizant of the Machiavellian behind the scenes, who's actually being truthful and authentic to their actions and behaviors, and having a little bit of a second guess and thinking, hmm, what's the ulterior motive here? And I think that can be very informing of you and your happiness, your engagement, your your sense of purpose, etc. And it's just more of a heads up that I wouldn't have thought this way in my 20s or 30s. And it's not to be skeptical of everybody, but it is just to kind of have one of those, and your question, what's my question? Why is it that there are certain leaders in particular who talk the good game of being truthful and honest and having integrity, etc.? And then at a moment's notice sometimes, but when you don't expect it, all of a sudden there's a 180, and you're like, whoa, why did they do that? What was the rationale? But also, how could they? In the sense of, you just told me that you loved bananas, but now you have just burned all the bananas in the fridge or in the on the counter. Like that sort of antithetical, you said one thing, but now you're doing the exact opposite. And the best way to describe this in the actual research in the theories is called espouse versus enacted values. So espoused values are the ones in which that an organization or a leader puts on the front lobby, puts on their team website, right? Whatever the case is, puts on their lanyards with their values. But then when push comes to shove, you wonder, huh, why did they not espouse when they espouse the values, it's saying one thing, but the enacted values, when it's the other way in which that they treat that human being, that frightens me, Lee. And I think that's something, again, as this almost 55-year-old looking back and still looking ahead for my my next 20, 25 years. Why do leaders do that? That is the puzzling question that I'm trying to unravel.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Yeah, I have ideas. I've certainly worked for someone or two or three along the way. Um, had some experience that. I hope I'm never that person, right? Yeah, I think it's it's a very interesting question. And I think they exist. And I, you know, as you were talking, I was thinking, like, you know, it's that gut check moment of a leader. It's that moment of do I what I would call drink the Kool-Aid and do what I'm expected to do, or do I light something on fire right now, probably, and send up a whole bunch of smoke signals that something's going on. Totally. I usually was the latter, and it has a cost at certain times uh when you don't go along with that, or you don't follow the line, or you don't do what's expected. But actually, I think that's led me to where I am right now because I didn't do some of those things that I think you know, people wanted me to do that 180, or people wanted me to, you know, fall in line, and I've just never been that person. So for what it's worth, I think it leads you to or closer to who you truly are when you stick to who you are. So I love that question. So I'll keep following you as

Why Age Is The Future Of Work

SPEAKER_00 12:55

you continue to answer that question.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

You've written a lot of books, right? And so when you think about this book, your newest book, The Future of Work is Gray, why this book? Why now?

SPEAKER_01 13:08

Well, partially because of the subtitle, actually. So I'll get to the title, but the subtitle is The Untapped Value of Age in the Workforce. And what I've recognized is that the gray part is actually more to do with fog about age than it has to do with old. So I'm doing a double entendre here essentially. So as a guy who was in charge of culture building, of collaboration, of team development, of leader development for years, like literally years, and still to a degree doing it today in a consultant capacity, uh, whether I'm a trainer, whether I'm a consultant, a keynote speaker, whatever the case may be. The book came now because I believe that I was able to reflect enough on the things as that leader that I didn't do or pay attention to. So in my 30s and 40s, I didn't think about age Lee. And I particularly didn't think about age for others. So I didn't think about what it might be like to be a young starting employee. I didn't think about what it might be like to be middle or older age woman going through menopause. I didn't think about what it might be for someone who just got packaged out at the age of 58. And me a culpa and kind of shame on me as a leader whom was in charge of culture building, leadership development, and so forth. Why didn't I? Was it because I wasn't taught? Well, partially. Was it because I was naive and ignorant? Yeah, a whole hell of a lot of peanut butter on that spoon. And I think what I'm trying to do with this book is to not just say sorry, but to shine a light on the fact that age is inevitable. We are all at some point in our lives and careers, young, middle-aged, and older. And the organizations out there really do not pay attention to that ultimate litmus test of that every organization is made up of age. But secondly, uh, when you do the math, there's something that's happening. And that is life, thankfully, is getting longer for many of us because of advances in healthcare, medication, fitness levels, you know, healthcare, attrition. But also, we're not having as many children. So as much as we are living longer, which is yay, even with immigration, our levels of young people are lowering, diminishing. And so the organizational future makeup from an average age and composition of talent perspective is changing and will significantly change in the next 10 years. So basically, three key things. One, I'm trying to make up for some lost time on some things that I didn't think about, age. Two, our organizations are not paying attention to what I call age debt, which is not paying attention to longevity, that we're living longer, not paying attention to that we're not having as many young people come through, not paying attention to ageism. And then uh number three, I'm trying to provide a hopeful solution based on my what I call Ruby experience and the interviews and the research that I did globally to say, look, y'all better pay attention to this because, like it or not, it's changing and you better be prepared.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Right. I think some of the ways that we think, and honestly, how AI thinks, because all it knows is what we tell it and what it can research and connect patterns, right? But I think what I'm seeing is a very, I'll just use archaic or behind the times way of thinking what leadership is or what teams look like or what organizations are, because I think it's a combination of the people within it, right? That makes sense. But what I mean by that too is the age. It doesn't mean the people who've been there the longest know the most. It doesn't mean the people that have been there the least are the least experienced. And I think it's a new way of looking at things too. Like I'm very um bold, I guess. I think boards should have younger people on them because I think they have something to say, something to share, and something we can learn from. I do think that with age comes hopefully for all of us more wisdom and understanding and connecting of the dots, which I think that's something I've done all of my career, but I think it's gotten stronger and ability to do some of the things, like you said, like thinking about all the different pieces of the puzzle when you're looking at a team or an org when it comes to that. What is your thought about how to integrate the different ages that are in an organization to create a culture that really does honor the knowledge of everyone and honors the people who make up the organization, not just by levels or you know, org charts?

Rivers Rocks Rubies In Real Teams

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Yeah, well, uh funny you should say that. The org chart started in 1892 from New York Railway Company, and that was where it started, and it continues to this day. The career ladder, which is one of the things I'd like to talk about with you in this question, yeah, uh, was started in 1924, and we continue to use the career ladder piggybacking off the org structure, like the org chart, as ways in which that you know our organizations should operate, and to your really good credit, Lee, about board composition. So, why is it that it's just made up of middle slash older tenured individuals from wherever they come? Is there not certain curiosity and fluidity that can come from someone that's young in input and feedback at a board level? Like, why not?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

And the engagement between those two people because I do think the conversations that happen educate both. And then I think ultimately, if if that's happening, I feel like then the organization or the board moves forward at a different pace.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Precisely. And so take your wonderful enlightened example of the board and just extrapolate that now to projects inside the organization, to tiger teams, to gigs, to mentorship. Is mentorship just from a wise individual employee down, or should it be reverse, right? Right. So there's all these little micro opportunities to take a look at how you might be intergenerational uh in the composition of what it is that you do as an organization. Now, whether you're small, medium size, or large, it doesn't matter. It's the attitude, it's the cultural dynamic that you're trying to create. So if you have a new 12-month project to install some new system at your organization, great. Well, maybe you need to take a really good hard look at what's the composition of that team for the 12 months. Is it made up representatively of what I call rivers, rocks, and rubies? So younger workers, middle-aged workers, and older workers. And that has merit. And it's been proven in a bunch of different human behavior scientific assessments and research that when you do have multi-generational, multi-age composed teams, that the productivity and the output at the end is always higher. So it's just like, okay, if the science tells us this, then why aren't we doing it? One of the other things I talk about, the career ladder. So just one other example is if we're only saying to an organization that the only way to increase your pace or your compensation and your experience is to go up. Well, maybe that's not really how things work these days. Maybe we should be thinking about lateral moves. Maybe we should be thinking about short-term assignments. Maybe we should look at, you know, older Rubies, as I call them. Maybe they could say, hey, you know what? I've been director of EP for like 10 years now. I'd like to move down to an individual contributor role. Let's talk about compensation, but set leave that aside for the time being. But maybe there's opportunities for people to put up their hands and say, you know what? It's my time to go back to being an individual contributor. I would like to mentor or, you know, be the conciliary, if you will, right? To the new person coming in that we promoted from within. But I'd still like to be around here and to help and shape the narrative of where we're going forward as an organization. That type of unthinking to rethink and to do something different is what we we really need to be thinking about in our orgs.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Yeah. I I want to work where you're working. So I think we could do some good stuff. And and I feel like too, there's a sense of honesty that is different when you're having those types of conversations. Honesty is part of obviously us individually, but I also think what I mean by that in an organization is that you can feel safe to have those conversations, right? I know we both know Amy Edmondson, and she is the one who really has hit home what psychological safety and so much more looks like. But I think that has to exist for that conversation to happen, right? A safe space to say it and not get fired the next day or for whatever may be next, in the sense of a package, because I'm too old for X, Y, or Z. So when we think about longevity and we think about the things that you're doing, you know, being bold and putting out there, you know, ways that we could work, ways that we can look at generational advantages and how we learn from one another. Why do we still not connect this when we see gaps in leadership or lack of innovation or, you know? People not being able to find a job, although you look online and there's hundreds and thousands of jobs. Why do they not think that it has to do or has anything to do with what we just talked about needs to go away? It could be age-ism. It could be, you know, oh, you don't have enough experience or you have too much experience. It seems

Escaping A 1980 Model In 2030

SPEAKER_00 22:20

like we can't get it right.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

We're in a Lee, a 1980 work model being blind to a 2030 reality. And that 50-year gap seems absurd, but we are stuck in the ways of when I say 1980, I mean we have not we have not really evolved how how culture, how career ladders, how org charts, how we promote, how we hire, what the talent spectrum is. Again, we we need a a complete rethink because of what it is that we're entering into. So in 1980, just as an example, in the US, those in the workforce over the age of 55 was about 10%. And by 2031, that will be 26%. So just by math, you know, you have doubled and a half the percentage of people over the age of 55 in the workforce. So your average age is changing, but at the same time, the population grid is also on the move. And so what are you doing in this era of AI to not hire young people? Why are you not hiring some of them in the entry-level work that you're now farming out to AI or other automated ways? You are then what? Maybe you're winning in the short term from an eBIT or profitability perspective, but by not hiring some young people, how do they become middle managers? How do they learn the icky friction, gooey job stuff that they had to learn from when we were young? I'm not pining for yesterday. What I'm saying is we're not thinking through, whether it's older workers, middle-age, or younger, what is about to happen. And so that 80s comment being stuck in our ways and not thinking ahead to 2030 is a thing I actually discussed in another book of mine. You mentioned purpose. So the book is called The Purpose Effect. And in that, I basically say, look, there are three types of purpose. So just a little sidebar, but it'll explain where I'm getting to with your question. Sure. So the purpose effect, if you think about Venn diagram, three circles at the top is personal purpose. That's you. That's what do you stand for? How do you want to be known, essentially, right? But then we all work, whether you work for yourself or you work for a company or school or hospital, it doesn't matter. There's two other types of purpose at the bottom. Those two circles or um parts of the Venn are role purpose and organizational purpose. So in role purpose, to your point of sense of meaning and purpose that you brought up later, you got to feel like you're doing something of worth in your role that matters. Now you might be on the assembly line at Toyota or Ford, but your boss and your culture of that team, you better feel good about what it is you're doing. You know, so that doesn't just feel like a paycheck. So regardless of who you are, you got to find some sense of meaning and role purpose. But your organization has to stand for something as well. So it has to take care of you, it has to delight its customers, et cetera, et cetera. But where am I going at this? Is that you're in the middle. So you are in the middle of the Venn diagram. You come to work with a personal sense of purpose, like how do you want to be known? Who are you? What do you stand for? You do your job. So that's role purpose. Hopefully, it's not just a paycheck. You feel meaning in that, and you hope and believe that the place in which pays you, the organization stands for something, whether it's you andor customers andor community andor the environment, whatever it is. Now, if, however, that organization stands solely for short-term profits, then they're going to now flip to this book six, seven years later or so. They are only going to be doing the things that allow for short-term profits to materialize. So will they be interested in keeping a 71-year-old around on a part-time contract? Probably not, because it's going to cost money. Are they going to do whatever they can to not hire young people coming out of college or university for those entry-level roles, what that could be otherwise outsourced and replaced by AI and et cetera? Probably they're going to do that. So it goes back to what's the org sense of purpose in this time of transition to AI, but also to an aging society. Those are key to me in connecting the dots between the two books.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

Yeah, I think they're absolutely connected, right? And I love that you have books on each of the topics. What I'm finding is that I feel like the concept I'm talking about and really honing in on recently is just we're we're all in some type of transition at some point. And sometimes we're literally in the same transition at 54. You're about to be 55, I'm 54. That someone who's 25 might be going through. There are things that we go through, and we could be 20 years apart or 10 years apart or whatever it may be, but we're still going through it. But we see the transition from a different vantage point. And I think that's where the advantage of being together is not being seen, I think. And you know, we have all these clubs and memberships, and it drives me freaking nuts. And I know I have one, I have one, but I really want to kind of flip it on its head in the future, you know, maybe in the near future, where it's just, you know, we are together in orbit, meaning like there are certain things we're going through where I want to be close to people and times where I'm going through something and I just want my space, or there's times I want to be around people and I want to I want to learn and almost get like catapulted forward, right? And so, and those are directly related to like when you think about different types of orbits in space that I've you know just put my head down and to try to learn. I'm not an astrologer or scientist or work for NASA, and that's not me. But I think we're all in orbit and we're in orbit with the other human beings that are on this planet, and we don't always see the value and take advantage of what we could get by talking to someone 20 years younger than us. You have three children, and so they're in their 20s, right? So mid-20s to younger 20s, and my daughter is 29. So, in the sense of that, I learn a lot in our conversations and we don't always agree, and and that's really okay. But I get this sense of a different view on something and a different view on how I'm also being perceived potentially too. And when you think about that, do you feel like as you get older, you become bolder then? Because you actually see more have a bigger perspective or see patterns or recognize them better or more readily than someone who just, you know, from a just a standpoint, they just don't have the same level of experience.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

It's an interesting observation, and I would say yes and so my yes and is um I've always considered myself to be bold, like I've never been shy, very courageous. I'll try anything, whether it's quitting a job, proposing to my wife in my fourth year of university. Why not?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Worked out.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

It worked out, yeah. Three kids, 31 years later, it's working out. She still puts up with me. But I will say that what I learned through the research for the book is why I coined instead of having generations in the workforce, like now I know your age, and but instead of using generations in the workforce, like why should I be Gen X at work, even though technically I'm a Gen Xer?

SPEAKER_00 29:30

I don't even know what I am. I'm constantly asking that question.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Precisely. So, what happens though is that I figured out in hindsight, because I am of this age right now, that in fact we all go through three eras at work. So you have your young era, which I call rivers, we have our middle-aged era, which I call rocks, and we have our older era, which I call rubies. I would have been able to figure out the river rock ruby metaphor in my river era because I didn't know what rocks or rubies were or meant. But looking back with the wisdom I have accrued and earned, frankly, that metaphor came to be on a bike ride because I recognize that senior level individuals, and whatever the age, you could be 45, 65, it doesn't matter. There's no like number that says, okay, all rubies are 50 and up. It's that, okay, you've entered into this era where you feel like you have achieved a bunch of different things in your life and your work, your career, and you're now able to kind of see around corners. You're able to connect the dots, like you just said. You're able to take some of your river rock experience and say, Yeah, you know what? This is what happened in 1995. I would have done it differently, but maybe this might help you in 2026. So that's where I think we need to become age agnostic. And that's the apology I'm trying to deliver with this book, but also with some useful and hopeful evidence to move forward. And that is we all age. We all go through a Taylor Swift era's tour. And that is, we all go through young, middle-age, and old. We all will be rivers, rocks, and rubies, like it or not. You're not a Gen X at work. You can be Gen X in the community, you can be Gen Z in the community, but at work, you're just a young worker. You're a river. At work, you're just a rock worker. And that might be you dealing with older aging parents and young kids. Maybe you don't have kids. And then you get into your older years, like you are and I am. And you know, you've got three kids, I do, uh, out of the house in college and university across Canada. That's a different era for me. But I think I've got some worthiness of my experience in which to that I've captured and can help. And if we have that mindset in our organizations, as opposed to my point about purpose in the org, you know, not hiring young people or terminating older folks because they're too old or won't learn a new trick, or you think they cost too much. And we're not rethinking what a career ladder should be. We're not rethinking what wisdom is and how we might both generate and transfer that, young, middle age, or old. That I think is my biggest worry these days, there, Lee.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Yeah. I think we're, I don't know. I feel like a lot of the world's in denial. That's what I think. I think people keep using the same book the same way we've always done it, which is one of I can't stand that statement. Like many of our listeners probably can't stand that statement. We keep taking things we've done and trying to apply them to what's happening now, even though we don't even know what's happening now. And one of my analogies is like, I feel like we're holding on to it like a purse on the subway at 2 a.m. Like, no one's gonna get this, and I'm gonna protect it at all costs. And it just feels like that's not gonna work. Denial and kind of going dark and black and not, you know, putting your fingers in your ears and covering your eyes isn't going to actually fix the situation. And I worry about these companies. I know they're huge companies, but laying on three to five to ten thousand people. I can't imagine trying to get back that level of talent when you need it. And I really do feel like you're going to need it. Maybe you don't need that many, but you're not really thinking clearly when you're just one felt swoop getting rid of a whole department that does X or Y, because something you know, AI can do that, but they can do it today. But AI tomorrow is informed by actually those people that did that job. And so for me, that I think about stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

I'm sure you do too. All the time.

SPEAKER_00 33:28

A different workforce strategy, right? And I think that's also what you're trying to let people know through your work and the things

Work Life Bloom And The Engagement Myth

SPEAKER_00 33:35

that you do. One of the things you talk about is work-life balloon. Yeah, tell me a little bit about that because it challenges the concept of work-life balance, which it I don't even know if that's from the 80s or where that's from, but I've never believed in balance because I just feel like it's minimally exist, like it just exists for a moment, like a seesaw. You're balanced and then you're not. So I've always said alignment instead of that. But tell me about work-life bloom and what it means to help people really thrive in their life, personal and professional.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

What a great segue because it's important when you start talking about if we want to be age agnostic and more age inclusive. How do we in the organization really categorize what it is that we are? Well, first of all, we're humans and we will have ups and downs. You'll have ups and downs at work, ups and downs at life. And if anyone can convince me that people don't take their work home and think about it or do it, or that life doesn't seep into work, whether that's thinking about their kid or their their mom, whether that's something that happened in the neighborhood, whatever, their own personal health. Let's be real. Like, there's no such thing as work-life balance because work and life are continuously imbalanced. And we're just trying, to your point of the seesaw, trying to get some semblance of order when those back to the incursion word, those incursions occur. So, my belief, my theory, which I think I proved with global research, is that there's no such thing as work-life balance. And the piggyback to that, by the way, in the same playground is employee engagement. So the sidebar here is that if our work suggests that we believe in work-life balance and we promote it, yet we know that people will have ups and downs in both work and life. So we're just saying right away, well, is work-life balance a thing? Can we be always balanced? And similarly, can we be always engaged? Why is it that an organization continues to survey their employees once a year, maybe twice a year, to say, hey, do you feel like work is going good for you? Yes or no. Do you feel like your boss supports you? Yes or no? Maybe it's a Likert scale, whatever the case is. And then we have an organization that fixates on an employee engagement score. What's your employee engagement score this year? Oh, we got to 55. Oh, that means 55% are quote engaged. What was it last year? It was 54. We got it up a point. All right, well done, everybody. What does it mean? So if you look at the data, just by example here, Lee. So right in the late 90s, Gallup introduced employee engagement. They said it'd be a good idea for us to track these 12 questions and we'll ask the entire organization these questions, and we will find out if people are quote engaged, which is loosely kind of aligned, as you can imagine, like to work-life balance. It's like, so if I'm engaged at work, maybe I'll feel good at home, and et cetera. So what's happened? Well, since the late 90s, and now we're on to almost, what is that? Almost 30 years. The employee engagement metric, both globally and independently by country. Let's look at US. US hasn't really fluctuated in these 30 years. It hovers around 30%. And then you look at the what they call the actively disengaged, which are the people who kind of I guess want to go into work and set fire to the place, that is hovered around 10 to 12%, with the other 60%, quote, not engaged. So you have basically three camps. You've got 30% of employees who are quote engaged, 10-ish percent that are actively disengaged, like saboteurs almost, and 60% that are basically like, meh, meh. So if we could just recognize, first of all, that we are all moments in time and that we do bring things from home and the community into our workplace, and things go on at work that make us maybe not bloom and maybe not engaged. Now, is the ideal of work-life bloom state where work and life are both kind of happening pretty cool and awesome? Of course it is, but I can tell you right now, at this second, that I am not a bloom level for two things going on in my personal life. One thing that's a major catastrophe on my work life, and it's like I don't feel like I'm blooming right now, Lee.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

Me either. Honest, if I'm being honest, I'm not blooming. I don't feel like it, at least. Maybe on LinkedIn it might look like it.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

I don't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

I try not to fake that either.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

So imagine millions of employees, right, under the purview of a leader, and we wonder then about performance, productivity, they mail it in. Why are they sick? Why are they stressed? Why are they, you know, getting into fights? How come they they seem morose? Like all these things, these are real life human things. We have to recognize you can never always be balanced, you can never always be blooming, that you might be imbalanced, and that is as a result of this work-life computation. And so when I did my global research, 11 countries, US included, 5,000 leaders, 5,000 non-leaders, so individual contributors, I got the same results that Gallup got. And the thing that we have to remind ourselves is that, well, what creates that situation? And that is factors. So for example, at work, if I don't feel a sense of purpose, it's not going to be a great day for me. I got to feel like something meaningful. If I don't understand where we're going, i.e. the strategy, and I'm confused, whether it's a team strategy org, whatever, they're like, yeah, I don't get it. I'm checked out. If I don't feel on my life, just to give you a couple, right? If my life factors, if I don't feel well, so my health and wellness, guess what? I'm gonna bring that into work. If I don't feel belonging, whether it's like age, for example, like I've got a bunch of wrinkles, and people are like, who hired the old guy? That will determine how you feel at work. So we need to be real, and that's my point is that work-life bloom is uh the ideal state, but you won't always be blooming, and that's okay so long as your leader is supportive of you.

SPEAKER_00 39:33

Yeah. So I love the statement you made. We are all moments in time, and you may be where everything's aligned, like what you were just saying, and everything is blooming. Personal, professional, it's just the most beautiful thing. But there are, if you think of just even the cycle of a plant, which is something I'm I'm getting into gardening and flowers and really trying to have a greener thumb than I've had in the past. But everything doesn't bloom. There's seasons, there's cycles, there's things that come every year, there's things that just need to be replanted every year. And I really feel like there's some great analogies from that for sure, along with you know, just thinking about how our life progresses, right? But we are all moments in time. So I think it's it's not like what's her problem, or why is she doing that, or why is this or that? It's like okay, that's data, that's information that we take in. Okay, something's changed. What's happening? And I think sometimes we judge it versus try to understand it. And sometimes I'll just say it's big for me, we try to fix it when it doesn't need fixed, it just needs time or space or understood. And do you have ideas from all of your work and all of your research in the you know, all the the great content within your most recent book where we can step back and see that with a wider lens and toning in on fixing or erasing or eliminating or making it better? Because I mean, that would be, I think, one of the things that could help

Empathy With Rapport Plus Context

SPEAKER_00 41:00

organizations who are in flux right now. There's a lot of fear, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Yeah. So that us being all a moment in time, by the way, is what's called liminality or a liminal state. We are in between here and there, always. So being in a liminal state, there ergo for a leader's uh requirement, in my opinion, is to understand that each of us are in the in-between here and there, always, like it is a perpetual liminal state. And the here is as a result of yesterday or before. So the things that are happening, whether it's again work or life, etc. And you're trying to become a leader's job, I say. So your point of what can they do is to employ empathy with rapport. So, what do I mean by that? So, a leader who demonstrates rapport will also demonstrate empathy. Empathy comes in three ways there's cognitive, emotional, and sympathetic. So, one way to look at it is head plus heart equals hands. So, head is cognitive empathy. This is you building the rapport to understand what your team member is thinking. So it's this, it's cognitive empathy. It's it's actually you using your head to get inside their head. Oh, what are they thinking? Like, what's what's going on with this decision? Or what are they thinking because maybe their spouse just lost their job or their kid just went to off to college? Like, what are they thinking? But then emotional empathy is the hard part. Well, what are they feeling? So you're using your heart to get inside their heart. Oh, I wonder what they're feeling. And then you can do something about it, which is sympathetic empathy. This is using your hands, and that's where the rapport comes from. And so when rapport mixes with empathy, and then you, as the leader, are then really by duty required to provide context in the business setting, right? You're not there to be therapists, you're not there to be uh dad or mom or uncle or aunt, you're there to be the leader, but that doesn't mean that you're not humanistic in it, which is back to the rapport and empathy equation. So if you use head hard hands, build the rapport, and then provide context. So that goes back to where are we going? How does this relate to you? What's the role purpose? What's our strategy? How is it that you know we are gonna be more inclusive to age? What is it that you can do to us for us? Where are you going in your career? Do you want to retire at 58? Why is there anything we can do to help you? Like that is context with rapport and empathy. When leaders do that simple thing, Lee, then ironically, you get engaged employees and balanced employees because they feel like you've got their back. They feel like you can provide them air cover when things go wrong or things are wrong or things don't feel great where I'm not balanced or blooming. So the connective tissue here, again, with all my books is basically yo leader. Are you a human? Yes. Could you act like one for the team members in which you serve? That's the simplest way to define six books for you.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Book number seven is going to be called Yo Leader. All right. Are you listening? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Yeah, but it's just a one-page pamphlet. That's all right.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Okay, there you go. Yeah, I love it. Infographic. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Are there beliefs? So we talked about believing in yourself, which is essential. It's it's the B of the bold framework. So believe, own, learn, design. So believe in really looking at your beliefs and looking at your internal ones of yourself first, owning what you need to own and getting rid of and not taking ownership of things that aren't yours to own, applying your learning and designing your next step, right? I love that within the liminal definition. Are there things or beliefs that we feel that let's just say people over 40 need to retire immediately? Like stop thinking

Rewire Mindset And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_00 44:40

like that because that's really not the future.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Yeah. So let's retire, retire.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Okay, thank you. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

And let's introduce the word rewire.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 44:49

So what is it in your 40s and your 50s, 60s, 70s, etc.? Like, what's your bold rewire mindset? What are you going to rewire? And there are some things that are your responsibility. It's not just the org. So, for example, let's say you got terminated, didn't see it coming. You're 59. What are you going to rewire with your head, your headspace, to say, well, what are the transferable skills that I have developed in my career that maybe I won't be an architect or an engineer or a you know sales manager anymore, but maybe I can go do something different. Who knows? Even perhaps more purpose-driven than what I did for the previous 25, 30 years. So there's an onus, I believe, on the human being, the individual, by the way, Lee, that it's not just, oh, I'm so hard done by because the organization waxed me or didn't, I didn't get the job or whatever the case may be. You have a rewire opportunity. And that is back to mindset, mind over matter. That is back to, you know what, might take some tough sledding, as we Canadians say, in which to get to the destination, but it'll be worth it if you re- have a rewire mindset, not a retire mindset. So that's kind of the first thing I'd say on the individual side. On the organizational side, I honestly there's this rethink you and I have been talking about. And the bold aspect here, the notion that I really truly want leaders to be thinking about is what are you gonna do to rethink and thus rewire how you think about talent? You know, it's just archaic, the way in which that we have set ourselves up to have this, as I say, 1980s thinking and a 2030 reality. You're gonna have to rethink if you want to survive and thrive as an org, as a team, what your practices are from a talent perspective and get some of those biases, you know, cleared out of the way.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah. And be honest, I have uh something I do with the teams I talk to and the organizations I work with and with my retreats, and it's a bold commitment. So you make a bold commitment to yourself, nice. You know, you say, I choose to be bold, right? And so, like one of mine, my very first one is work differently, meaning don't keep doing the same things you've always done and really look at where you are now and where you want to go. Because the way I worked to get that job, that raise, that title is a heck of different than I'm working now as an entrepreneur. And what I deemed was success before is no longer success now. And I I do feel that's somewhat I hear people saying it, I hear people, it's not just me who's thinking this. Like I just don't think that's something that's happening to me. It's success is spending time being outside, uh, you know, with with people I want to be around and doing work that has the most meaning possible, right? And it doesn't always mean that the work is my job, it just means I'm doing things that are possible. Hopefully, my job is aligned. You know, I'm the boss, I'm an entrepreneur, so hopefully it's aligned with the purpose, but it is. But you know, for others, I think sometimes I think there's this sense of like everything has to be wrapped up in my career. Everything has to be wrapped up in one place, nice and neat. And I just think, you know, we've heard people talk about portfolio careers and being able to, you know, do things outside of it. I think you know, very, very, very slowly we are turning, but it isn't at a pace and rate that's keeping up with you know the world as it's turning, right? Because I feel like yes, the earth is turning right now as we're speaking very slowly and we don't feel it. But I think what we're not realizing is that we can miss or be left out of really incredible things if we don't expand the lens a bit. How do we help individuals first expand their lens to see what's possible at any age, young, old, whatever's in between?

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Well, kind of like how we started this, where you asked me, so how do I define bold? And and that is we have to be so much less closed-minded and more open-minded to the possibilities of who we are, what we can achieve, and the belief or the bold belief, might I say, in yourself? Yeah, if you are closed-minded, you will end up in situations that are probably not to your liking. So, how do you teach yourself or use the right teachings to get far more open in the opportunities that uh you need to go out and conquer, essentially?

SPEAKER_00 49:03

Do we have to do it alone? Do I have to figure it out all on my own?

SPEAKER_01 49:06

No.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

How does someone listening right now go, I'm all in, I'm ready? Where do they go first? How do they start?

SPEAKER_01 49:11

It goes back to bravery and courage and you know, your own authentic self. You're saying, Look, I need help, or I'd like to partner, or can someone advise me? When we hold things in, bad things happen. So that trust of unleashing your emotion, your worries, your threats, but also the opportunities and the options and the possibilities and the wants and the needs. Like if you think that you need help, reach out. As we both know, the levels of loneliness have skyrocketed since the late 80s. So my encouragement is to break that terrible indictment on humans and say, go get a pal, go get a coach, go get a community group, like get face to face with people, just say, here's where I'm at. I need some help. Help me get more open.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Yeah. So just on the other side of the question here is like, is there a belief that younger workers or people just graduating from college need to also think about challenging the belief that maybe has been ingrained or ascribed to them?

SPEAKER_01 50:14

Everybody, everybody. We're we're all humans, regardless of your era. And it's up to us and incumbent upon us ultimately to open that door.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah. If someone's sitting there right now and really thinking about their own personal bloom, what is the next step, the very next step they make?

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Belief, funny enough, like using your language. It's belief in you that if there's something awry, that your responsibility is to you, you look in the mirror every day, like do something about it. It's not gonna happen surreptitiously. It will happen because you take ownership of that opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Yeah, take action, do something, move forward. Yeah, I love that. So I hope that everyone sees all the information about Dan and how to connect with him in the episode notes, and also to pick up his newest book, The Future of Work is Gray. Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Thank you so much. Lee, what a great host. What a conversation. Really bold of you, and thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast. Through the continuum of bold stories, vulnerability to taking the leap, you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story. By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset. We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.